Stores for Prisoners - when?

[tim]

This may sound repetitive, but I honestly missed this when reviewing the Stores rules. 

Original Rules:
"[28.15] For every five Prisoner Points in a hex, the capturing Player must expend one Store Point per Operations Stage (not Game-Turn). These Stores are expended before any other stores may be allocated. They need not be present; they are subtracted from the nearest supply dump, etc."

But it doesn't spell out when to expend those POW Stores.

I would like to suggest a solution.  The first time in an ops stage that stores can be spent is in the Construction segment (#4), and the only phase before that where any supplies are spent is the Water Distribution segment (#1).  So would it make sense to just expend these POW stores in the Water Distribution segment? 

If so, we could update the rule this way:
"[28.15] For every five Prisoner Points in a hex, the capturing Player must expend one Store Point per Operations Stage (not Game-Turn) in the Water Distribution Segment. These Stores are expended before any other stores may be allocated. They need not be present; they are subtracted from the nearest supply dump, etc."

Note, this does not necessitate any changes to the previously discussed changes to the Stores rules:

Proposed to add in the reference to Oases and to organize the clauses more logically:
[51.1] USAGE OF STORES
[51.11] Every TOE Strength Point in play requires four Stores Points per Game-Turn, except as noted below.

[51.12] HQ and engineer units require only one Stores Point per Game-Turn (regardless of assigned TOE equipment).
[51.13] Units sitting in Oases have all the stores that they need and do not require the expenditure of Stores Points. See 52.3.
[51.14] Prisoners use stores, at a rate of one Stores Point per five Prisoner Points per Operations Stage. (See 28.15). Prisoners must be sup¬plied with Stores before any other units. For this purpose only, if there are no Stores in the hex, Stores may be deducted from the nearest supply dump, regardless of how far away it is. Guard points require two Stores points per Game-Turn each. Guards may also draw from the nearest dump the same as prisoners.
[51.15] Stores may have to be expended during construction. See 24.0.
[51.16] Each Stores Point weighs one ton. Stores may be transported by trucks or planes, and they may be airdropped. Stores must be present in the hex to be used. Stores on truck convoys cannot be used until off-loaded.
[51.17] Fifty per cent of any captured Stores Points may be used by the opposing Player; the rest are lost.

[Deleted]

If we choose not to debate whether or not the original rule is flawed (insofar as POWs thereby use supplies differently than any other force in the game), I agree that yours is a good solution, Tim. To be honest, in the interest of consistency and simplicity, I'd rather just change 28.15's "1 store per stage" to read "3 stores per turn" and clothe them at the same we clothe everybody else. Again, though, I think yours is a reasonable solution.

[tim]

Oct 3, 2014 2:03:41 GMT @grognard said:

If we choose not to debate whether or not the original rule is flawed (insofar as POWs thereby use supplies differently than any other force in the game), I agree that yours is a good solution, Tim. To be honest, in the interest of consistency and simplicity, I'd rather just change 28.15's "1 store per stage" to read "3 stores per turn" and clothe them at the same we clothe everybody else. Again, though, I think yours is a reasonable solution.

Valid point.  I was just going for the smallest change.

On the other hand, if we note your earlier comment about 1 store for 5 POWs (or fraction thereof), having it by Ops Stage encourages gathering the prisoners together.  And shipping them out as soon as possible. 

And there is the Pasta Rule for Water (by Game Turn), versus other water use by Ops Stage.  So it's not totally different. 

[Deleted]

I'm don't see where "3 per turn" is any less a motivator towards consolidation than "1 per stage" but you've been thinking about this longer than I so you may well be right, Tim. Anyhoo, good catch on the timing issue and I'll get back to reading and considering the offensive possibilities of disrupting your supply chain with a well-timed voluntary surrender.

[tim]

Oh noes, don't do that. Don't throw Graziani into the Briar Patch.

And thinking of the Pasta Rule, shouldn't Italian POWs need extra water rations?

[Deleted]

Oct 4, 2014 5:50:12 GMT tim said:

And thinking of the Pasta Rule, shouldn't Italian POWs need extra water rations?

lol.  No, we're not issuing pasta to them; they'll get the same water conserving bread, cheese, and sausage the landsers get - and, ironically, be better off than they were in their own units. 

[Michael Miller]

Hence the observed willingness of large numbers of Italians to surrender all too easily? Hopefully Tim will find a way to throw a meatball or two into the spaghetti from time to time and keep the grunts happier. Incidentally, the Germans were reportedly very fond of the Australians' canned "Bully Beef", avidly combing through captured and abandoned stores for such.

[Michael Miller]

I have found another possible issue with respect to prisoners. Rule 28.17 states that moving prisoners requires assigning one Guard point for each Prisoner point. This seems excessive and non-historical to me. I'd suggest about 1 Guard per five Prisoners instead. In a Camp on the other hand, only a single Guard point is considered sufficient for any, unspecified number of Prisoners. This seems possibly too low. Thoughts?

[Michael Miller]

Agreed to the rules as written, expending the required Stores point for each Prisoner point during each Op Stage Water Distribution Segment, while noting the awkwardness of this one-off procedure and considering why it wouldn't make more sense to distribute three Stores per, during the standard Stores distribution once per turn. Guards require two Stores per Turn distributed normally.