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Post by tim on Oct 6, 2014 21:43:08 GMT
I was thinking along similar lines Mike. Requires unequivocal commitment of supplies to nominated task to receive dispensation, simply the expenditure in advance, rather than for the supply to be co-existent in the hex at the commencement. I have enough info now to devise a suitable system. As with the discussion on stockpiles, I'm okay with either the rules as-is or with some kind of reasonable restraint on how we can stow supplies. But as we discussed on the phone, the rules do allow construction to take place using 1st Line Trucks. So this isn't a point upon which the rules are broken. However, we can always agree to make a change to simplify something as long as we aren't making it unrealistic.
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Post by tim on Oct 6, 2014 1:34:08 GMT
I'm okay with Stockpile to refer to piles on supplies not in a Supply Dump or Air Facility - changed the topic header to match. The Construction chart [24.17] shows two projects – Temporary Repair Facility and Airfield, which require expenditure of supplies, in both cases Stores, in excess of the magic 50 point limit. The former can only be built in a Village or City, while the latter in several types of terrain. I'd suggest just adding an exception to 24.9/54.18 for this purpose only. Such supplies are considered expended at the beginning of construction, so there should be no problem of oversized "stockpiles" or gamey tactics like declaring start of construction and then moving away to leave a super stockpile. Don't forget fuel, which one can't drop in a hex with no storage facility (Dump or Air Facility). That also affects building a Temporary Repair Facility (50f 250s), and Airfield (50f 100s) as well as - Rebuilding a Repair Facility level (10f 50s) - Rebuilding an Airfield level (10f 20s) - Building an Airstrip (10f 20s) - Building a Flying Boat Basin (25f 50s) - Rebuilding a Flying Boat Basin level (10f 10s) - Building a Flying Boat Alighting area (10f 10s) It doesn't affect clearing ports, building supply dumps or dummies, building fortifications, laying minefields, or building and repairing roads or railroads. Please note that by using attached 1st Line trucks these things can all be done. The question at hand is whether this seems to have been an omission or if it was intentional. The one issue that does need to be decided is the discrepancy that Bob pointed out about the cost of a Supply Dump. I would lean towards 10s, given what other things cost.
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Post by tim on Oct 5, 2014 18:12:26 GMT
You do raise a good point about how you build things to get around that limitation. It took me a minute, but I think that I have some solutions:
1) Dump them in a supply dump or air facility in the hex (since the latter act as supply dumps) 2) Load the supplies into 1st Line Trucks attached to a unit in the hex
I don't think they have to be attached to the constructing unit itself, but haven't thoroughly re-read everything on the topic. The point being that convoying (2nd/3rd) trucks have to unload stuff before it can be used, not 1st Line trucks.
The discrepancy between the rule and the chart is a good question. I want to look to see if there are any other discrepancies, though I'd lean towards the chart. But we can resolve those as we come to them.
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Post by tim on Oct 5, 2014 17:53:12 GMT
Here's the rule I'm talking about, quoted from the rules Tony sent out 9/13. The "Note" section is highlighted in Yellow, and is a change from the earlier 1.1 version. The latter point, plus the lack of in-document labeling lead to my email the other night abut version controls. If you're working from different versions, I agree that is a problem. I've re-sent out that rules email so we are on the same page again.
I too access the original rules and will compare them to updates for reference sake. In this case, Tony has incorporated the restrictions in Table 54.12 in the common charts (that is the number on the printed copy I'm holding) into the Note. But Mike's note was posted while I was working on this message - the rules call the table 54.13 and the table is labeled 54.12 (the spreadsheet version has 54.13 on the chart itself but the tab is 54.12). So that needs to be fixed.
Let's look at the other issue separately, how we build stuff that exceeds those 50 Ammo and 50 Stores limitations.
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Post by tim on Oct 4, 2014 18:45:39 GMT
This is not really a rules question, but this forum is a valid place to air it.
If you look at Map A, the road from Nofilia wanders around the Gulf of Sidra from Nofilia to Benghazi. In places the road seems to just slightly cross into another hex while going from one hex to the next. An example of this is A1920, near Mersa Bregha, another is A2209 next to Marble Arch. The Road distance chart measures 61 hexes from Nofilia to Benghazi, which only works if those two hexes are not taken into account.
So the above is how I see and count that distance, but I wanted to share that openly so that this is not a surprise.
The quandary comes in the fact that a Medium or Heavy Truck moves 60 hexes on the road in an Ops Stage. And that distance on the map as designed is 61.
Note that the distance from Benghazi to Tobruk is exactly 60 hexes.
The Axis logistics planning would be much, much simpler if we could ignore that excess hex and treat the Nofilia-Benghazi distance as 1 single Ops stage of movement. I'd be happy to take the higher Breakdown column that would cause.
Any interest on the Allied side in allowing that Mulligan? That is of course noting that the exact distance only works as long as the road isn't overstacked, there are no bombed out sections or sections impinged by zones of control, etc.
Can I get a half CPA?
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Post by tim on Oct 4, 2014 6:44:04 GMT
This is more of a note than a change needed. The Supply Capacity Table [54.12] contains a note and the end that states: "Note that the Tunis/Tripoli/In Transit boxes may not be used as supply dumps."
These rules seem to clarify that the note doesn't refer to the Large Tunis, Gabes, Tripoli and Tripolitania boxes.
"[8.81] The area around Tripoli and Tunisia, both important entry ports for Axis troops and supplies, are represented by a series of four large boxes and a number of smaller boxes on the western edge of game-map section A. Each large box represents a specific region, centred around the geographical name in the box: Tripolitania, Tripoli, Gabes, and Tunis. References to these boxes as a group are indicated by the term “Tripoli/Tunisia boxes.” The smaller boxes are used to repre-sent the location of units in transit between the Tripoli/Tunisia boxes."
[8.87] There are no stacking restrictions and unlimited Water in the Tripoli/Tunisia boxes and the In Transit boxes. In addition, the Tripoli/Tunisia boxes are considered to contain air facilities, non-transferrable supplies and maintenance crews sufficient for every plane the Axis Player has. [8.88] The Tripoli/Tunisia boxes are considered to be Supply Dumps of unlimited capacity. However, a truck or motorisation point may not be moved in the Operations Stage in which it loads and/or unloads supplies."
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Post by tim on Oct 4, 2014 6:30:25 GMT
49.16 – Please remove the parenthetical “and must” use cargo fuel first.
That should be a player decision as to what cargo from where to use first.
Example: two Tank Regts are stacked together, the Trivioli Tank Regt has attached 1st Line trucks loaded with some fuel, the Aresca Regt. has no fuel in its trucks. The player wants to Move the Aresca a few hexes first, then move the Trivioli.
According to the rule change, the Aresca would have to draw fuel from the Trivioli's 1st Line trucks rather than using gas from its own tanks.
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Post by tim on Oct 4, 2014 6:08:42 GMT
In the Logistics Rules Sequence of Play (page 32), under "H. Movement and Combat Phase" the next section is labeled "I. Movement Segment".
This clearly should be "1. Movement Segment" as the segments are sub-steps of the Phase. In the other two Sequences of Play, "Movement Segment" is step 1 of that Phase. Also, there is no "I" segment, it skips straight from H to K, probably to avoid confusion between I and J.
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Post by tim on Oct 4, 2014 5:50:12 GMT
Oh noes, don't do that. Don't throw Graziani into the Briar Patch.
And thinking of the Pasta Rule, shouldn't Italian POWs need extra water rations?
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Post by tim on Oct 4, 2014 5:36:08 GMT
Moved the cache/min-dump/no-dump discussion to a new thread.
This is for minor typos and the like, please keep it on topic.
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Post by tim on Oct 4, 2014 5:32:05 GMT
Rules version problem.
Bob, you're quoting the first sentence of rule 24.9, as it was originally written but ignoring the update to the Note in v1.1+ of the Land Rules.
Mike is referencing the Supply capacity chart - it's 54.12 by the way. And In V1.1+ of the Land Rules, Tony changed the "Note" that followed 24.9 to explicitly reference that capacity chart and the limitation that only 50 Ammo and 50 stores are allowed to be dumped in a non-Supply dump hex (a.k.a Cache or mini-Dump).
I agree both with Mike's interpretation, and feel that Tony's change to 24.9's Note is consistent with the intent of the rule that only non-liquid supplies could be just dropped off in a hex. As logistics Commander I would LOVE to be able to drop off all supplies, but I do not think that we can do that.
Please note that I follow that same logic in the supply narrative I posted the other day, that Fuel and Water have to be conveyed directly from truck to truck (or gas tank/radiator) or picked up from a supply dump.
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Post by tim on Oct 4, 2014 5:22:14 GMT
Bob Posted: [24.9] "Supplies may be placed in a hex not containing a constructed supply dump. The only restriction on such is that trucks 'in convoy' may not load such supplies." It does mention that there are restrictions on the number of points that may be so deployed but I don't have those handy. There are reasons one might expect to find all four types of supplies in such a hex. Fuel, ammunition, and stores not only can but MUST be off-loaded into hexes before use and one cannot assume that all units will at all times have all the first line trucks sufficient to carry their supply allotments.
Fuel: [49.16] "fuel from convoying trucks must be off-loaded first" Ammunition: [50.15] "ammunition on truck convoys may not be used until it is off-loaded" Stores: [51.15] "Stores on truck convoys cannot be used until of-loaded." Water: No mention of an "off-load" requirement, only that water may be transported by trucks. Nevertheless, it seems water might conceivably be left in a well hex if a unit were to draw more than it could carry or if water were off-loaded for use by a unit short on trucks.
There is, on the other hand, no mention of - let alone a provision for - "mini-dumps" anywhere that I can find. Supplies are either in a dump, on a truck/ship/plane, held by a TOE, or in a hex.
Side note: In [53.25], the authors use the term "cache" to refer to a bunch of supplies not in a convoy or dump; I would consider that a reasonable, maybe even preferable, alternative to "stockpile." Mike Replied: The restriction to Stores and Ammunition is implicit in the Supply Dump Capacity Chart [54.13]: 50 each Ammo and Stores, zero each Fuel and Water. ============================================================= Mike Replied: The restriction to Stores and Ammunition is implicit in the Supply Dump Capacity Chart [54.13]: 50 each Ammo and Stores, zero each Fuel and Water.
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Post by tim on Oct 3, 2014 17:58:52 GMT
Guys. Please move the supplies discussion to a new thred. Let's keep this on topic.
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Post by tim on Oct 3, 2014 2:52:22 GMT
If we choose not to debate whether or not the original rule is flawed (insofar as POWs thereby use supplies differently than any other force in the game), I agree that yours is a good solution, Tim. To be honest, in the interest of consistency and simplicity, I'd rather just change 28.15's "1 store per stage" to read "3 stores per turn" and clothe them at the same we clothe everybody else. Again, though, I think yours is a reasonable solution. Valid point. I was just going for the smallest change. On the other hand, if we note your earlier comment about 1 store for 5 POWs (or fraction thereof), having it by Ops Stage encourages gathering the prisoners together. And shipping them out as soon as possible. And there is the Pasta Rule for Water (by Game Turn), versus other water use by Ops Stage. So it's not totally different.
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Post by tim on Oct 3, 2014 2:48:08 GMT
Following on the theme of the original post, but focused on the Front Line Units.
Front Line Unit Supply Process
Pre-Turn planning? - Develop plan for turn, movement and combat estimates - Compare to Supplies on hand (in TOE and 1st Line Trucks)
Ops Stage B. Weather Determination Phase - If Hot, apply additional 5% Evaporation and Spillage for Fuel and Water
C. Organization Phase 1. Water Distribution Segment - Each infantry Battalion or Company requires 1 Water point - Vehicle TOE (Tank, Recce, Artillery, HQ, etc) or Truck Point - requires 1 Water point each Ops stage it uses any of its CPA - Hot weather doubles all water expenditures - Prisoners use stores, at a rate of one Stores Point per five Prisoner Points.
2. Reorganization Segment • Trucks, Reinforcement and Replacements are attached or detached 6. Supply Distribution Segment • Supplies in a hex may redistributed into units, trucks loaded and unloaded
H. Movement and Combat Phase
1. Movement Segment • Move units expending CPA, calculate and deduct fuel use • First Line Trucks pick up and deposit supplies, using CPA points
2. Breakdown Determination • All vehicles and motorized units are checked for breakdown • Broken down vehicles are logged on the Admin and Supply sheet
3. Combat Segment b. Barrage Step – expend ammo c. Retreat Before Assault – non-phasing player expends fuel and may check for breakdown e. Anti-Armor Step – both players expend ammo • Destroyed armor are logged on the Admin and Supply sheet f. Close Assault Step – both players expend ammo • Captured POWs, armor and guns are logged on the Admin and Supply Sheet
Repeat Phase H.
J. Truck Convoy Movement Segment • 2nd/3rd Line trucks are moved, supplies dropped off and picked up
Front-Line Supplies narrative
Game Turn
Stores (and Water for Italian Battalions) can be drawn from any non-Truck Convoy source in the hex the unit is in. Stores must be consumed if available, they cannot be withheld voluntarily. Note any shortages on the unit notes.
Ops Stage
Front line combat units expend supplies from their gas tanks, supplies held in the TOE points and on 1st Line Trucks.
Water for the unit can be drawn from any non-Truck Convoy source in the hex the unit is in.
Fuel and water for movement can be drawn from any non-Truck Convoy source in the hex the unit starts the movement segment from. If the unit starts stacked on an air facility or supply dump, fuel can be drawn from those sources. Otherwise the fuel used must come from 1st Line trucks (including those of other units), or that held in the vehicle tanks of the unit.
Ammunition for the unit can be drawn from any non-Truck Convoy source in the hex the unit is in. Units with no ammunition may not attack or defend.
Resupplying units and restocking 1st Line Trucks may only be accomplished in two ways: 1) Organization Phase, a. 2. Reorganization Segment – attaching loaded trucks from other units or from 2nd/3rd Line Truck Convoys b. 6. Supply Distribution Segment (Does this expend CPA?) 2) During Movement by physically moving the unit to a dump (or mini-dump) where supplies are. a. Note that Fuel and Water can only be picked up from a Dump (not a mini).
Please note that for 2nd Line Trucks to get supplies to units (or their attached 1st Line Trucks): 1) the unit must be stacked with a supply dump that the trucks unload into; 2) Fuel or Water can only be moved to a unit in the Organization Phase by being stacked in the same hex, using steps 2 or 6. 3) Ammo and Stores may be moved to the unit the same ways, or by dumping small amounts of those supplies as mini-dumps in the same hex.
Following this, it is clear that for an Ops Stage a unit is on its own and can only use the supplies it has on hand, can pick up or siphon during the turn using CPA.
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