Stockpiles: Supplies in hexes without a Dump (aka mini-dump)

[Michael Miller]

Either is fine by me. Let's put this one to bed.

[Deleted]

Yep, good summary, Tim. Not sure how we'll actually incorporate that into the rules but conceptually I think we can put this one to bed as Mike suggests.

[Michael Miller]

Attempting to summarize this lively discussion has proven a challenge even after attempts to split out all the digressions. I'll do my best.

Regarding creation and maintenance of supply stockpiles (supplies placed in hexes lacking an existing Supply Dump marker, listed as Non-Dump in chart [54.13], aka mini-dumps. This chart was also mislabeled in the printed rules as [54.12]), original rules were vague. After discussion several months back, we agreed to the below additions which are incorporated in the current rule set:

[54.18] As per 24.9, up to 50 stores and 50 ammunition points may be deposited (unloaded) in hexes that do not contain a standard supply dump (maximum of one per hex). Whilst 2nd/3rd line trucks may contribute to (or initiate) such "stockpiles", only 1st line trucks and units may load up from such dumps. These stockpiles are represented by the small marker flags with which Cyberboard has been augmented.

[54.19] The following rules help to prevent a proliferation of numerous stockpiles by simulating wastage and capture. At the end of the supply distribution segment, all mini dumps in hexes not occupied by a land combat unit of at least one TOE point, are subject to wastage based on what would be the CP cost of a motorised unit from the dump to the nearest supply dump, as follows. If the distance is more than 30 CPs, all supplies in the stockpiles are lost, otherwise a single six sided die is rolled for each type of supply present. Add 2 to the roll if the newest dump is up to 10 CPs away. The modified die roll x10 (rounded down) is the percentage of that type of supply that may be added to the nearest dump. Any supplies over and above the capacity of the nearest receiving dump are lost. Players may choose freely between a distant dumps or eliminating the whole mini dump instead.
Should an opposing combat unit comprising at least one TOE point pass through a hex containing a mini dump, the dump is eliminated. Supplies may be recovered first in accordance with 50.16 and 51.16, providing the first unit to pass through has sufficient overall capacity and expends the necessary CP is to load the supplies.


Concerns were raised regarding unexpected shifting and loss of supplies due to the "scavenging" mechanism built in. We agreed to using the term "stockpile" to more obviously differentiate these from full Supply Dumps. Alternative approaches were proposed, roughly shown below:

1. Rules as written, requiring "only" bookkeeping of such supplies and their locations.
2. Tony's proposal, attriting and removal of fraction of supplies to nearest full dump.
3. My proposal (not fully fleshed out) for allowing one non-attriting stockpile per division/3 SP brigade, all others subject to loss if the hex subsequently contains no combat units during the Stores Expenditure Stage.
4. Bob's proposal requiring ongoing occupation or transit and CP expenditure by units to preserve the stockpile.
   

We will be proceeding on the basis of (B) above from the outset, reviewing for efficacy and effort after four game-turns (one month).

[ATD]

Great, except I think Tim is still in favour of suspending the rule, pending experience.

For my part, I felt it more historically correct to limit the proliferation as above. Also I had thought it better to start with the rule in, rather than add it later (when an asymmetric situation had developed on the ground).

I'm prepared to accept any solution that avoids delay/further effort at this stage!

[tim]

I concur with going with the rule as updated. I really don't anticipate doing this. So some game experience will prove whether this is workable or needs revision.

[ATD]

Anything that turns out to present unexpected difficulty, including stuff in (or not in) the original rules[O])will be subject to revision of course. In fact it was to remedy anticipated problems with stockpiles that the update was conceived.

[Michael Miller]

Small issue – The new [54.19] still contains several references to "mini dump", and while at it, a couple of grammaticals/typos:

[54.19] The following rules help to prevent a proliferation of numerous stockpiles by simulating wastage and capture. At the end of the supply distribution segment, all mini dumps stockpiles in hexes not occupied by a land combat unit of at least one TOE point, are subject to wastage based on what would be the CP cost of a motorised unit from the dump stockpile to the nearest supply dump, as follows. If the distance is more than 30 CPs, all supplies in the stockpile are lost, otherwise a single six sided die is rolled for each type of supply present. Add 2 to the roll if the newest dump is up to 10 CPs away. The modified die roll X×10 (rounded down) is the percentage of that type of supply that may be added to the nearest dump. Any supplies over and above the capacity of the nearest receiving dump our are lost. Players may choose freely between a distant dump or eliminating the whole stockpile instead.
Should an opposing combat unit comprising at least one TOE point pass through a hex containing a mini dump stockpile, the dump stockpile is eliminated. Supplies may be recovered first in accordance with [50.16] and [51.16], providing the first unit to pass through has sufficient overall capacity and expends the necessary CP is to load the supplies.

[tim]

A few more typos, and a small clarification.  

[54.19] The following rules help to prevent a proliferation of numerous stockpiles by simulating wastage and capture. At the end of the supply distribution segment, all mini dumps stockpiles in hexes not occupied by a land combat unit of at least one TOE point, are subject to wastage based on what would be the CP cost of moving a motorised unit from the dump stockpile to the nearest supply dump, as follows. If the distance is more than 30 CPs, all supplies in the stockpile are lost, otherwise a single six sided die is rolled for each type of supply present. Add 2 to the roll if the newest nearest dump is up to 10 CPs away. The modified die roll X×10 (rounded down) is the percentage of that type of supply that may be added to the nearest dump. Any supplies over and above the capacity of the nearest receiving dump our are lost. Players may choose freely between a distant dump or to eliminateing the whole stockpile instead. Should an opposing combat unit comprising at least one TOE point pass through a hex containing a mini dump stockpile, the dump stockpile is eliminated. Supplies may be recovered first in accordance with [50.16] and [51.16], providing the first unit to pass through has sufficient overall capacity and expends the necessary CP is to load the supplies.

[Michael Miller]

Ok. Please, make it stop!

[ATD]

Yes, seriously - we have to call a halt, or we really never will get going.

[ATD]

Actually, while suffering a mild dose of rules-fatigue, I must confess to not having given Tim's post the attention it deserved. My speech recognition system is not perfect. I have accepted and incorporated the changes in total.

[Deleted]

G'Day guys,
Thought I should introduce myself. I have been talking with Tony. Anyone wants to call me Colin is fine, but I have been playing games as Sloth for years.

I fully understand never to introduce yourself in a contentious way, but I might be able to illustrate some value here. A couple of points.

Basic point. The stockpiles are necessary in play and logistics guys will go nuts if they are not in complete control of supply locations.
1) We played with the stockpiles as per the table, 50,0,50,0. No problems. yes it was handled by a secret list held by the logistics guy, but no issues with proliferation and most guys either used them or wrote them off over time.
2) To begin construction we just used supplies from 1st line trucks. Never a problem. Trucks are scarce but this is a purposeful decision.
3) Major construction like Fortifications generally involves building a dump first. Under attack and isolated, troops in a fort only survive if a dump exists there.
4) I imagine the 50,0,50,0 limit came from original play testing, and our play confirmed it. In this game water and fuel are absolutely necessary, diminish and need regular replacement, necessitating 1st line trucks. For small units holding a position, garrison etc, you attach 2 light trucks with fuel and water. Occasionally the front line guy will send them back for a quick refill. The real issue in maintaining defence and attack is ammo, or long term garrison is stores. So you issue an order, a unit goes to sit in a location, attach 2 light trucks, dump 50 ammo, or less (Rule 0 - never waste ammo!) and 50 stores via 2nd line and your garrison can be forgotten about for some time, not tying up too many scarce trucks on stores and ammo. Also during battle the standard approach is to have 2nd line trucks go to a unit in combat, dump ammo and stores on the ground (stockpiles) and tear off again. Even a brigade or div can be saved occasionally with this. Remember ammo and stores can be expended from any held within the hex except loaded 2/3 line trucks.
5) In the end I would recommend you play with the dumps as written including stockpiles or it becomes a bit awkward to play.

For anyone caught up in realism vs playability. In the 4th month of the Tobruck siege some troops noticed the Axis started to bomb a bit of ground near the coast road/El Adem Crossroads. Well away from forces. A couple of guys got curious and went to see why. Turned out there was considerable Italian ammunition stored at the point. Even in a highly populated area like Tobruk, the reality was if something was put somewhere the place was big enough and enough dust that anything left there had a high probability of not being found again without a compass bearing.

As I said, do not want to restart contentious issue and happy if this is ignored, but I thought the play experience aspect may be of interest.

Cheers and hello.

[ATD]

Much as I envisaged Mr Sloth.

I still see a problem with virtually every hex ending up with scraps of supplies. Attrition rules still provide for a realistic number and lifetime, which addresses the specific example. The idea that the whole desert was littered with usable supplies all the time isn't something that I think anyone would really defend.

[Michael Miller]

I definitely appreciate the perspective of someone who has actually played this game vs. rules reading and thought experiment. The Axis is not likely to have sufficient ammo and stores laying about to make this a significant problem anyway.

[ATD]

I think Colin might have assumed that we had intended to do away with them completely, perhaps not having yet seen the "365th amendment". : ) A suggestion was made that is not entirely unlike the present ruling.