[30.57] Port capacity limits and Coastal Shipping

[tim]

I am confused by a rule. This replaces the original muddied version that referenced a chart that doesn’t exist ([30.59]). That chart was probably replaced by the [55.3] Port Capacity and Efficiency Level Chart. So a fix was definitely needed - I just do not think this makes sense.

“[30.57] Whenever a Player transports troops by way of a port, the ability of that port to handle supplies is reduced. For every Stacking Point transported in, reduce the Maximum Tonnage for that stage by 10%. (SP's shipped out have no effect.) Thus, if 1 SP were shipped into Tobruk, its maximum tonnage of supplies for that turn would be reduced by 10% to 1530 (1700-170). For ports with Air incoming capacity of more than one SP, if they bring in at least 50% of their supply tonnage maximum, reduce the SP level by at least ⅓. For ports with 1 SP maximum, shipping in supplies has no effect. “

The problem I have is that shipping in supply reduces port capacity one way, while shipping in units reduces them by another. Using Benghazi as an example – the port can ship in 2 SP and 2,500 tons of supplies. So if you ship in 1 SP, you can ship in 90% of 2500 tons (2250), or 2 SP and you can ship in 80% (2000). But if you ship in more than 1250 tons (50% of capacity, you can only ship in 1 SP. So which is which?

Note also that this limitation only applies to the CW side. The Axis only receives ships Stacking Points by Sea through the reinforcement process, and scheduled reinforcements do not count against capacity per [55.15].

[Deleted]

Yeah, there's a real mess there, Tim. Thanks for bringing it up; I hadn't noticed it (yet). Case 30.55 is completely screwed up; it requires the troops to start the phase their *destination* port! Slight bit of logistic dyslexia there. No idea what (if) they were thinking.

Case 30.55 should read "To be transferred, the unit(s) must start the Operations Stage in the port of embarkation. ... In the Truck Convoy Segment, the unit(s) are transferred to their port of debarkation where the unit(s) land by expending their entire CPA."

Case 30.57, I believe, should read "... For each stacking point transported in, reduce the Maximum Supply Tonnage for that Stage by the equivalent fraction with the remaining capacity rounded up; for example, if two stacking points of troops were landed at Alexandria (functioning at full efficiency), the Maximum Supply Tonnage is reduced by 2/5=40% to 9000 tons (15000*60%=9000). Similarly, when supplies are received, the port's Stacking Point capacity is reduced by the appropriate amount rounded up; for example, if Mersa Matruh were to receive 120 tons of supplies by sea, its Stacking Point capacity would be reduced by 120/250=0.48 which rounds to one meaning that it could not receive a unit that stage."

[Michael Miller]

Yes, I noticed this before when applying the "official" errata, which was almost as muddled looking as the printed rule with the missing chart reference. I like Bob's proposal, except for "remaining capacity rounded up" should be specified, lest we round up 102 to 1000 or something similarly ludicrous.

[Deleted]

That's a very interesting point, Michael, and one that had not yet occurred to me. Even the "Layforce" rule [27.7], though, requires a CW fleet unit to transport the unit so it would not be far-fetched to infer that CW coastal shipping is limited to supplies and not TOEs. Similarly, in the Sequence of Play [48.0 V.C.7] it specifically states "Both players execute the transport of cargo between African ports ..." (emphasis mine) 

I will therefore be sure to mention in my rule recommendation that CW coastal shipping, like Axis coastal shipping, is limited to supplies, not TOE.  I'll try to get that posted here tonight.

[Deleted]

Okay, how about these:

[30.55] To be transferred, each unit must start the Operations Phase in its port of embarkation.  Units to be transferred may spend no Capability Points during the phases phases prior to the Truck Convoy Segment.  During the Truck Convoy Segment, each unit is transported to its destination port and, upon arrival, it must disembark.  Disembarking has a Capability Point cost equal to the unit's CPA.  If, for any reason, the cost of disembarking causes a unit to exceed its CPA, see case [6.21].  Note: Breakdown [21.0] does not apply to disembarkation. 

[30.57] Ports have limited capacities (see [55.3]) so the off-loading of troops will necessarily limit the off-loading of supplies and vice-versa. For each stacking point transported in, reduce the Maximum Supply Tonnage for that Stage by the equivalent fraction of the current capacity.  Similarly, when supplies are off-loaded, the port's Stacking Point capacity is reduced by the appropriate fraction with the Stacking Point capacity rounded down. For example: If 2 stacking points of troops were landed at Alexandria while functioning at full efficiency (capacity 5), its remaining Stacking Point Capacity would be 3 and its Maximum Supply Tonnage would be 9000 tons (15000*(3/5)=9000). If Alexandria then received 5000 tons of supplies, its remaining Supply Tonnage capacity would be 4000 tons and its remaining Stacking Point capacity would be 1 (5*(4000/15000)=1.33 which rounds to 1).

[tim]

Looks good. Let's try doing it that way.

[tim]

I do not think the game means to limit the CW to shipping only supply by coastal shipping. Otherwise there is no need for the Stacking point import/export capability limits. And it makes the change we are discussing elsewhere about those limits being adjusted for supply imports unnecessary. 

Also, the layforce rule is about amphibious landing, not just port-to-port shipping. So that limitation won't necessarily apply.

[Michael Miller]

Oct 11, 2014 5:37:17 GMT @grognard said:

Okay, how about these:

[30.55] ...  If, for any reason, the cost of disembarking causes a unit to exceed its CPA, see case [6.21].

Looks pretty good to me, but [30.55] still seems to have some ambiguity with respect to the [6.21] reference. I am inferring that this simply invokes the existing Cohesion/Disorganization penalties for whatever CP expenditure occurs above the unit's CPA. Or is some other penalty envisioned here, but not specified?

[Deleted]

Yes, Mike, my intent was merely to specifically invoke the normal penalties for exceeding CPA.

[Deleted]

As specified in [30.5], "Coastal Shipping" is limited to only supplies. Troops are transferred by "Naval Transport" which is the same thing but under a different name. Where we have discussions of TOE/supply trade-offs, we're actually discussing trades between operations performed under cases 35 and 56.

[tim]

Oct 11, 2014 18:03:39 GMT @grognard said:

As specified in [30.5], "Coastal Shipping" is limited to only supplies. Troops are transferred by "Naval Transport" which is the same thing but under a different name. Where we have discussions of TOE/supply trade-offs, we're actually discussing trades between operations performed under cases 35 and 56.

Um, I read [30.5] differently, "Only the Commonwealth has the ability to transport troops by sea". So all we are talking about is voluntary unit transfers.  Case [56] is about importing supplies and replacements, not units.  So stacking points do not apply to that rule section, just [30.5].

Just to be clear, I don't think there is an effect on port capacity for Reinforcements [56.24], entire units and their 1st Line trucks received under charts [4.43b] Axis and [4.43a]  CW.  Rule [20.12] notes that arrival dates were adjusted for "the logistical problems of debarkation, etc." Also, a number of Reinforcements reflect when the units are released to this theater of operation, for example most early Italian reinforcements were already in Libya prior to the start of the game.  Likely those units were deployed on the Western frontier or were garrisoning Tripoli, or other off-map areas.  In essence, the reinforcement 'arrival' date is the date that the entire unit is in theater and available for use on an operational level. 

[Michael Miller]

To sort of meld this with the discussion regarding Coastal shipping in the Sequence of Play thread:

I read [30.5] as allowing CW troop transport limited only by port capacity, while [56.3] refers only to the Axis Coastal Shipping, with only the reference in passing to the CW capability. While it does appear that the rules are consistent, in my opinion they are awkwardly structured and placed.

I'd suggest moving Coastal shipping rules for both Axis and CW under [55.0] PORTS AND SUPPLY, into new sections [55.4] Axis and [55.5] Commonwealth, while leaving a pointer reference in the old [56.3] rule as follows:

[55.4] AXIS COASTAL SHIPPING
The Axis had a small fleet of boats that they used for coastal transfer of small amounts of supplies. These were old shipping boats and aging tramp steamers that could ill afford to venture too far from land. They have a limited capacity.
[55.41] Axis coastal shipping is represented by several ship counters. Each ship counter has its tonnage capacity printed on it. Each ship has a CPA equivalent of 50. Each sea hex costs one point. Axis Coastal Shipping moves four "Tripoli-Tunis" boxes per Stage.
[55.42] Axis coastal shipping moves only during the Truck Convoy Phase. Coastal shipping does not require fuel for game purposes.
[55.43] To use coastal shipping, the Axis Player loads supplies on his boats at the beginning of the Truck Convoy Phase (at a cost of 5 CPs) and then moves the boat. Unloading supplies costs 5 CPs. Only one type of cargo may be carried at any one time by any one ship marker.
[55.44] Axis coastal ships cannot be attacked from air or land. They may not enter a port that has been neutralized (having a current Capacity Level of zero), nor may they enter an Enemy-occupied port.
[55.45] Shipping such supplies is subject to and limited by Port Capacity (see rest of [55.0]), to the lowest calculated tonnage, in the port of departure (outgoing), and destination (incoming).
[55.46] No personnel, tanks, guns, etc., may be shipped via Axis coastal shipping.
[55.47] Coastal ships may stop and unload in one port and then continue on to another port, etc., as long as they do not exceed their CPA.

[55.5] COMMONWEALTH COASTAL SHIPPING
The Commonwealth had far more capable and numerous merchant ships available for use than did the Axis. Commonwealth Coastal Shipping is not represented by counters.
[55.51] To use coastal shipping, the Commonwealth Player notes supplies to be moved on his boats at the beginning of the Truck Convoy Phase. These are considered transferred to the destination port at the end of the Truck Convoy Phase.
[55.52] Shipping such supplies is subject to and limited by Port Capacity (see rest of [55.0]), to the lowest calculated tonnage, in the port of departure (outgoing), and destination (incoming).
[55.53] Coastal shipping cannot be attacked from air or land. Supplies cannot be transferred to a port that has been neutralized (having a current Capacity Level of zero), nor to an Enemy-occupied port (though the Axis player would surely be grateful for such a contribution).
[55.54] No personnel, tanks, guns, etc., may be shipped via coastal shipping, however see [30.5] for rules regarding naval movement of CW troops and equipment.

[56.3] AXIS COASTAL SHIPPING (Moved to [55.4])

[Deleted]

I certainly agree with "awkwardly structured and placed", Mike. This whole thing is making my head spin. I'll re-read your suggestion and the applicable rules a little later; right now, though, I'm trying to sort something else out - I'll bring that up in another thread.

[tim]

Oct 12, 2014 16:31:27 GMT @grognard said:

I certainly agree with "awkwardly structured and placed", Mike. This whole thing is making my head spin. I'll re-read your suggestion and the applicable rules a little later; right now, though, I'm trying to sort something else out - I'll bring that up in another thread.

Ask and ye shall recieve.  Here is the Coastal shipping discussion from the other thread, since they tie together. 

Grognard: “1) There is no mention in the current process of CW coastal shipping”

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Tim: “CW coastal shipping seems to be pretty much you saying "I move this from here to there", subject to port limits. But that is a guess on my part. Below are the two rule sections that apply, but they seem to be incomplete. I found no specific reference to the Commonwealth shipping supplies, but clearly you can.

[30.5] Naval Transport of Troops - this entire section is for your side only, the Axis can only move troops by sea via the Axis Convoys from Italy/Sicily etc. I can't use Coastal Shipping. At the end of this case it makes reference to CW transport of supplies by coastal shipping being "covered in Caste 56.0." However, that case is only about Axis Naval Convoys and Axis Coastal Shipping. “

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Mike: “CW coastal shipping is, as Tim notes, simply a matter of observing port tonnage limits, in and out. It's described only in the Sequence of Play outline so far as I can tell.

Lucky devils.”
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Bob: “Okay, thanks guys. I thought it was just me who couldn't find it. I'll search the documents and try to come up with some basic verbiage to enable the shipping "process" such as it is. We'll have to the el Jefe's "approval", of course, but I don't imagine the success criteria for that will be too outlandish. (Knock on wood.)

Briefly, I recommend that CW coastal shipments occur in the truck convoy phase (as do the Axis shipments) between any two ports under CW control, subject to the port capacities of the ports; the supplies to be transferred must be in the port of departure at the start of the phase.

I don't know if we want to try to wedge the 50 CPA limit in there somehow (as in, "any two ports under CW control and within 50 hexes of each other") or not. Thoughts?”
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Tim: “Yes, come up with wording you feel works. Offhand it could go under Case 57 "Commonwealth Supply Base", maybe as 57.1.

I do not think there should be the same CPA limitation. The Axis coastal shipping is described as "old shipping boats and tramp steamers" in [56.3]. My guess is that the CW had more and better hulls to carry their cargo. It is an abstraction, but realistically we are at most talking about shipping as far as Benghazi. I do not feel that you need to specify that the supplies have to be in the starting hex, that goes without saying. “
Bob: “Thanks for the input, Tim. To be honest, I think that very little should be allowed to "go without saying" where "saying" costs so very little. Your point about hulls is well taken and is what I would have assumed; nevertheless, I raised the possibility of a limit because you guys have been thinking about this mechanically and historically more than I have. The requirement for the supplies to start in the port of embarkation is, more or less, in the same vein as the rule against bucket brigades (53.25). Hmm. Ironically, 53.25 implies that the supplies *don't* have to be in the embarkation port but would be limited after transfer from truck to boat to the CPA they would have had aboard the trucks. Very complicated. I'd prefer to avoid it and require that the supplies be in the port.
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Mike: “Agree with this requirement for supplies to be present at the beginning of the Truck Convoy phase. On a related note though I see that [56.34] states that Axis coasters can carry only supplies, not TOE points. If the CW coasters are considered limited only by port capacity, then it's implied, but not stated that TOE points can be carried as well as supplies. That should be affirmatively stated if so.”
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Tim: “Under the rules as written Axis Coastal shipping can only carry supplies, not units or replacement points, and what they can load/unload is limited by port capacity. Further, those four Axis ships can only carry one type of supply.

I see no reason to change that. Sure we have to march them all the way from Tripoli (usually), but it keeps things simple. And they're a no-cost way to move supplies, and are not vulnerable to air attack or breakdown.”
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Mike: “My last post is primarily regarding Commonwealth Coastal Shipping rather than Axis. Since there are no explicit rules for it, the question is simply whether CW coastal shipping is also limited to carrying supplies, or are TOE points also allowed?”

[Deleted]

Thanks, Tim. So, to mash this all together at the 30kft level, "coastal shipping" (from whatever rules section) allows the Axis to ship supplies (only) by boats subject to boat and port capacities and the CW to ship supplies and troops subject only to port capacities.

Okay so far?  We can build on that?