Evaporation and Spillage

[tim]

Different Topic - 49.3 Evaporation and Spillage is poorly constructed (Water wastage is an afterthought). 

Here's the current text:
[49.3] EVAPORATION AND SPILLAGE
Fuel is subject to loss through evaporation and spillage, regardless of where it is kept. During the Stores Expenditure Stage of each game-turn, each Player reduces all fuel levels on the game-map (not in convoys at sea) by six percent (6%), rounded down. In addition, if the weather for an opera¬tions stage is “hot weather”, an additional reduc¬tion of five per-cent is taken as soon as the hot weather is determined. There is one exception to these rates: from Sept., 1940 until the last Game-Turn (inclusive) in August, 1941, the Com¬monwealth spillage and evaporation rate is nine percent (9%) per Game-turn. This is due to the poorly constructed containers used by the British; it wasn’t until the British copied that German “jerry can’’ that their rate was reduced (This rule also applies to certain sources of water, see 52.44.)


It should read something like (The first insert is the entirety of rule 52.44, so the reference isn't necessary):
[49.3] EVAPORATION AND SPILLAGE
Fuel is subject to loss through evaporation and spillage, regardless of where it is kept. Water, except for water in wells and pipelines, is subject to evaporation and spillage. During the Stores Expenditure Stage of each game-turn, each Player reduces all fuel and applicable water levels on the game-map (not in convoys at sea) by six percent (6%), rounded down. In addition, if the weather for an operations stage is “hot weather”, an additional reduction of five per-cent is taken as soon as the hot weather is determined. There is one exception to these rates: from Sept., 1940 until the last Game-Turn (inclusive) in August, 1941, the Commonwealth spillage and evaporation rate is nine percent (9%) per Game-turn. This is due to the poorly constructed containers used by the British; it wasn’t until the British copied that German “jerry can’’ that their rate was reduced." (This rule also applies to certain sources of water, see 52.44.)

[ATD]

I will edit the stores changes into the official rules Tim. Reading through the original text, a ruling is needed for dumps that may be inaccessible at the time. I shall add a brief rule on that.

In the interests of avoiding an undue workload, shall we agree to avoid minor edits unless they are essential. That test would not exclude proposals such as those presently under consideration.

[ATD]

The evaporation stuff is good too. The original authors seem to have forgotten to distinguish between “supplies” water and other water, then compounded that by referring to water on the game map. I may polish it just a little further in respect of two points.

The top of my head, I don't think that pipelines/the Commonwealth Railroad (sic) are restricted in capacity, so evaporation and spillage might be inapplicable. I'll check.

Just on the read through of this section isolation, it appears that hot weather evaporation would be a second calculation throughout the game, rather than simply an additional rate of loss. Depending on the position in the sequence of play (which I don’t have time to check just now), it might be possible to save a bit of work by combining them. Whether it is or not, we may not have to worry about it as I’ll program some stuff to do it automatically by then.

Incidentally, that’s another reason why we all need to be using exactly the same prescribed sheets in the same way and in the same format. It means that the programs can be augmented with such facilities; in this case to work on all the supply dumps.

[Michael Miller]

Re the evaporation question, the "standard" such is performed in the Stores Expenditure Stage (IV.B). Weather is determined almost right away at the beginning of the Op Stage (V.B, VI.B, VII.B). I think they could be combined without much impact on play by doing them together during the Weather Determination Phase, but you would have to pro-rate the "standard" (divide by 3) and calculate that per Op Stage in addition to any weather-related loss.

[tim]

Sept 26, 2014 14:27:24 GMT ATD said:

The evaporation stuff is good too. The original authors seem to have forgotten to distinguish between “supplies” water and other water, then compounded that by referring to water on the game map. I may polish it just a little further in respect of two points.

The top of my head, I don't think that pipelines/the Commonwealth Railroad (sic) are restricted in capacity, so evaporation and spillage might be inapplicable. I'll check.

Just on the read through of this section isolation, it appears that hot weather evaporation would be a second calculation throughout the game, rather than simply an additional rate of loss. Depending on the position in the sequence of play (which I don’t have time to check just now), it might be possible to save a bit of work by combining them. Whether it is or not, we may not have to worry about it as I’ll program some stuff to do it automatically by then.

Incidentally, that’s another reason why we all need to be using exactly the same prescribed sheets in the same way and in the same format. It means that the programs can be augmented with such facilities; in this case to work on all the supply dumps.

I agree that pipelines (which includes the Commonwealth's Railroad on the map) are not subject to Evaporation and spillage.  In part that is because those pipeline or rail hexes aren't water storage points, they draw water from Major Cities (per 52.21).  Major Cities are unlimited water sources.  

For added clarity, if we add such a note to 49.3, we should also add a sentence to the end of 52.23 stating that pipelines aren't subject to evaporation and spillage.  

Also, while looking into the above, it is clear that the added note in 52.11 is incorrect, or at least incomplete.  Currently 52.11 reads:
"[52.11] Water is found in wells and oases (see 52.3). Water supply may be extended from wells through the use of water pipelines)."  

This conflicts with 52.21:
"[52.21] Players may try to extend their access to fresh water by constructing water pipelines. Pipelines extend from a specific source of water-only wells in major cities."

Here's how that should read:

"[52.11] Water is found in wells and oases (see 52.3). Water supply may be extended from wells in Major Cities through the use of water pipelines)."

[tim]

Sept 26, 2014 2:07:47 GMT tim said:

Different Topic - 49.3 Evaporation and Spillage is poorly constructed (Water wastage is an afterthought). 

Here's the current text:
[49.3] EVAPORATION AND SPILLAGE
Fuel is subject to loss through evaporation and spillage, regardless of where it is kept. During the Stores Expenditure Stage of each game-turn, each Player reduces all fuel levels on the game-map (not in convoys at sea) by six percent (6%), rounded down. In addition, if the weather for an opera¬tions stage is “hot weather”, an additional reduc¬tion of five per-cent is taken as soon as the hot weather is determined. There is one exception to these rates: from Sept., 1940 until the last Game-Turn (inclusive) in August, 1941, the Com¬monwealth spillage and evaporation rate is nine percent (9%) per Game-turn. This is due to the poorly constructed containers used by the British; it wasn’t until the British copied that German “jerry can’’ that their rate was reduced (This rule also applies to certain sources of water, see 52.44.)


It should read something like (The first insert is the entirety of rule 52.44, so the reference isn't necessary):
[49.3] EVAPORATION AND SPILLAGE
Fuel is subject to loss through evaporation and spillage, regardless of where it is kept. Water, except for water in wells and pipelines, is subject to evaporation and spillage. During the Stores Expenditure Stage of each game-turn, each Player reduces all fuel and applicable water levels on the game-map (not in convoys at sea) by six percent (6%), rounded down. In addition, if the weather for an operations stage is “hot weather”, an additional reduction of five per-cent is taken as soon as the hot weather is determined. There is one exception to these rates: from Sept., 1940 until the last Game-Turn (inclusive) in August, 1941, the Commonwealth spillage and evaporation rate is nine percent (9%) per Game-turn. This is due to the poorly constructed containers used by the British; it wasn’t until the British copied that German “jerry can’’ that their rate was reduced." (This rule also applies to certain sources of water, see 52.44.)

Agreed that the rules as written require two evaporation tasks, one each Game Turn at the standard 6/9%rate, and the second each Ops Stage in the Weather Phase if Hot Weather is the outcome.  Please note the math(s) involved - a 6% reduction followed by a 5% reduction will not equal an 11% reduction, so pro-rating would increase weather effects.  

Also, in looking at this, please note rule 29.34 (under Hot Weather) emphasis added:  "If the weather is hot, all Fuel and Water Levels (not including water in wells or oases) are reduced by five per-cent (5%).  This includes water and fuel in dumps as well as in trucks. However, do not count the water/gas actually being consumed by a unit (in the radiators and gas tanks, as it were). This is done during the Weather Determination Phase."

So maybe we should think about porting the wording of 29.34 to 49.3 instead of the clunky "on the game map", and include the stuff in radiators and gas tanks to the reference to  out at sea.  Something like this:

[49.3] EVAPORATION AND SPILLAGE

Fuel is subject to loss through evaporation and spillage, regardless of where it is kept. Water, except for water in wells and pipelines, is subject to evaporation and spillage. During the Stores Expenditure Stage of each game-turn, each Player reduces all fuel and applicable water levels in dumps and trucks (not including that in convoys at sea or vehicle gas tanks or radiators) by six percent (6%), rounded down. In addition, if the weather for an operations stage is “hot weather”, an additional reduction of five per-cent is taken as soon as the hot weather is determined. There is one exception to these rates: from Sept., 1940 until the last Game-Turn (inclusive) in August, 1941, the Commonwealth spillage and evaporation rate is nine percent (9%) per Game-turn. This is due to the poorly constructed containers used by the British; it wasn’t until the British copied that German “jerry can’’ that their rate was reduced." (This rule also applies to certain sources of water, see 52.44.)

[Michael Miller]

I just ran the calculations and obtain the following, with typical 6% at start of turn, and counting one Op Stage of Hot weather, starting with 100 points of water.

• Rules as written: (100 * 0.94) = 94 --> (94 * 0.95) = 89.3, which is rounded down to 89 [as I read it; the rule reads as slightly ambiguous to me whether the reduction percentage or the final quantity is actually rounded down].
• Pro Rated, Hot in Op Stage 1: (100 * 0.98) = 98 --> (98 *0.95) = 93.1 --> (93 * 0.98) = 91.14 --> (91 * 0.98) = 89.18, rounded down to 89.
• Pro Rated, Hot in Op Stage 2: (100 * 0.98) = 98 --> (98 * 0.98) = 96.04 --> (96 * 0.95) = 91.2 --> (91 * 0.98) = 89.18, rounded down to 89.
  
• Pro Rated, Hot in Op Stage 3: (100 * 0.98) = 98 --> (98 * 0.98) = 96.04 --> (96 * 0.98) = 94.08 --> 94 * 0.95) = 89.3, rounded down to 89, same as written procedure.
  

Two of the three are very slightly worse, (89.3 ÷ 89.18) = 0.13%, so overall mean of (0.13% * 2) ÷ 3 = 0.087%.

So this is very close. I don't care which way it is done. It just seemed it could be a little simpler if building automated calculation formulas. It's arguable that in an automated system, we could even do more randomized evaporation so long as the overall effects are in the same neighborhood.

[ATD]

I agree that oases should not be a source of water for pipelines.

As for the legions lost patrol approach to prisoners, would it be easy for even possible to place POWs beyond reach, unless a supply path were interdicted by enemy units. I wasn’t sure what your final position is on that but for simplicity and the avoidance of any potential gamey moves, I’d be happy to go with supplies being taken regardless. Again, this would be another example of activity below the texture of the game.

Technically, the railway would be a storage point for water but as we agreed that there is no finite limit, evaporation and spillage are irrelevant.

The last quoted evaporation and spillage stuff is fine. The whole point of my original post was to address the very issue of 6% followed by 5% not being 11%! That being so, it seemed worth exploring the option of a slightly modified formula, such that hot weather could be anticipated and a single calculation done.

Given the sophistication of computerised automation, on reflection, I think we can handle the 2 calculations okay as far as dumps are concerned and probably convoys but that 1st line trucks would require further programming. Not huge but another thing to do!

It’s one of those things that, apart from the time-saving on the bookkeeping, the computer would ensure that there is no error in calculation or in re-entering values.

[ATD]

The above was written before seeing your calculations Mike. I very nearly commented on the possible difference being quite minor but didn’t stop to do the calculations, mainly for lack of time but also because it is of course dependent upon the quantity of supplies on which the percentages act.

Thinking through a little further, if we have the facility to do the calculation at all automatically (which we most certainly need, or from which we would benefit greatly), then it’s going to be easy to perform the calculation twice. The only additional programming would be to obtain from the user the circumstance/percentage that would be applicable.

[tim]

Sept 28, 2014 10:24:01 GMT ATD said:

Took a while to find it (wasn't a user authorisation) but you should now be able to create threads OK.

Yup, it's done and I created a thread! 

Thanks Tony. 

As to the math, I was being pedantic. 

Note that the deduction for Hot weather is 5% per Ops stage that it is hot, not once per turn.  But that's a side point. 

The main issues I was really concerned about was scale and how we'd look at pro-rating.  For scale, the Axis has about 18,000 fuel points at start.  Sure that's spread out across many 2nd-3rd line truck convoys and dumps, so some of the math will average out.  But taking Mike's math and jiggering with it, we're still within a few fuel points when looking at a 1,000 point dump.  So yeah, it's not a big issue. 

[ATD]

I know! : )

Two calcs will be fine. In fact, if the module gets more use, I will feel better about spending the time on it.

You know what Churchill wrote when (I think) some secretary corrected his grammar in a document? Something like: "This is the sort of pedantry, up with which I shall not put". I would be surprised if we are not all pedantic here anyway - it's certainly the game for it.

[Deleted]

Yes, Tim, of course you were right on 49.3 - I didn't even have to re-read the rule. Just a brain fart there; I was actually trying to say the opposite and got fowled up by double and triple negatives and staying up too late.

In the end, I think the way the rule is written should be reversed for clarity; i.e. "This includes water and fuel in dumps, in tactical stockpiles (aka mini-dumps), in SGSU, carried as cargo in trucks at any level, and in coastal ships but does not include fuel and water held directly by units themselves, trucks themselves (not as cargo) or by ships at sea."

[tim]

Sept 30, 2014 8:27:19 GMT ATD said:

"Below the texture of the game" is the operative phrase. There are all sorts of assumptions like this in simulations.

"Fuel and water in dumps and cargo aboard trucks is subject to evaporation and spillage". Does the job concisely.

I like that, so we'd use this update to the Evaporation and spillage rule:

[49.3] EVAPORATION AND SPILLAGE
Fuel and water in dumps and cargo aboard trucks are subject to evaporation and spillage. During the Stores Expenditure Stage of each game-turn, each Player reduces all fuel and applicable water levels on the game-map (not in convoys at sea) by six percent (6%), rounded down. In addition, if the weather for an operations stage is “hot weather”, an additional reduction of five per-cent is taken as soon as the hot weather is determined. There is one exception to these rates: from Sept., 1940 until the last Game-Turn (inclusive) in August, 1941, the Commonwealth spillage and evaporation rate is nine percent (9%) per Game-turn. This is due to the poorly constructed containers used by the British; it wasn’t until the British copied that German “jerry can’’ that their rate was reduced." (This rule also applies to certain sources of water, see 52.44.)

As for mini-dumps, we clearly agree that they shouldn't be allowed to get out of hand nor to just languish endlessly.  But let's see if there's really an issue before finding a solution. 

[Deleted]

I like "concise." Nevertheless, be advised that 49.3 as suggested leaves the rule's applicability to fuel and water "loose" in hexes (be it in TOE, stockpiles, air facilities, trucks, or airplanes) open to interpretation.

[tim]

[49.3] EVAPORATION AND SPILLAGE
Fuel and water in dumps and air facilities, and cargo aboard trucks, are subject to evaporation and spillage. During the Stores Expenditure Stage of each game-turn, each Player reduces all fuel and applicable water levels on the game-map (not in convoys at sea) by six percent (6%), rounded down. In addition, if the weather for an operations stage is “hot weather”, an additional reduction of five per-cent is taken as soon as the hot weather is determined. There is one exception to these rates: from Sept., 1940 until the last Game-Turn (inclusive) in August, 1941, the Commonwealth spillage and evaporation rate is nine percent (9%) per Game-turn. This is due to the poorly constructed containers used by the British; it wasn’t until the British copied that German “jerry can’’ that their rate was reduced." (This rule also applies to certain sources of water, see 52.44.)

This takes into account Bob's point about air facilities, yet maintains Tony's wording that is inclusive. 

The original rules do specify that liquids in radiators and gas tanks are excluded, should we add that back in?  Maybe a second sentence worded like: "Water and Fuel in vehicle or aircraft gas tanks and radiators are not subject to this rule."

Or is that overkill?  I'm open to suggestions.