[30.57] Port capacity limits and Coastal Shipping

[Michael Miller]

I think that should be the general rule, well stated, Bob. Of course as the Axis, I think it's unfair. Does anyone have a few boats for sale? These were the days before Craigslist and all.

[Deleted]

lol.

[tim]

Oct 12, 2014 18:53:50 GMT @grognard said:

Thanks, Tim. So, to mash this all together at the 30kft level, "coastal shipping" (from whatever rules section) allows the Axis to ship supplies (only) by boats subject to boat and port capacities and the CW to ship supplies and troops subject only to port capacities.

Okay so far?  We can build on that?

Well stated.  That's pretty much the goal of a rule update. 

I think that should be the general rule, well stated, Bob. Of course as the Axis, I think it's unfair. Does anyone have a few boats for sale?

Well, Guido in Agrigento has a few boats you can have - for a price. 

[Michael Miller]

Oct 12, 2014 19:46:50 GMT tim said:

Yes, because he really came through with those three we have now. The war was probably quite profitable for the Mafia.

[Deleted]

I'm sure you'll make efficient use of whatever CW coastal shipping counters you capture, Tim. <snicker>

Okay, since we're agreed on the general framework, we can interpret the rather vague and conflicting rules accordingly as we employ them and move this topic off the "critical path to gamestart" (if it was ever on there). Re-writing the actual rules as we them sort them out can go on in parallel with play.

[tim]

Oct 12, 2014 2:42:05 GMT Michael Miller said:

To sort of meld this with the discussion regarding Coastal shipping in the Sequence of Play thread:

I read [30.5] as allowing CW troop transport limited only by port capacity, while [56.3] refers only to the Axis Coastal Shipping, with only the reference in passing to the CW capability. While it does appear that the rules are consistent, in my opinion they are awkwardly structured and placed.

I'd suggest moving Coastal shipping rules for both Axis and CW under [55.0] PORTS AND SUPPLY, into new sections [55.4] Axis and [55.5] Commonwealth, while leaving a pointer reference in the old [56.3] rule as follows:

[55.4] AXIS COASTAL SHIPPING
The Axis had a small fleet of boats that they used for coastal transfer of small amounts of supplies. These were old shipping boats and aging tramp steamers that could ill afford to venture too far from land. They have a limited capacity.
[55.41] Axis coastal shipping is represented by several ship counters. Each ship counter has its tonnage capacity printed on it. Each ship has a CPA equivalent of 50. Each sea hex costs one point. Axis Coastal Shipping moves four "Tripoli-Tunis" boxes per Stage.
[55.42] Axis coastal shipping moves only during the Truck Convoy Phase. Coastal shipping does not require fuel for game purposes.
[55.43] To use coastal shipping, the Axis Player loads supplies on his boats at the beginning of the Truck Convoy Phase (at a cost of 5 CPs) and then moves the boat. Unloading supplies costs 5 CPs. Only one type of cargo may be carried at any one time by any one ship marker.
[55.44] Axis coastal ships cannot be attacked from air or land. They may not enter a port that has been neutralized (having a current Capacity Level of zero), nor may they enter an Enemy-occupied port.
[55.45] Shipping such supplies is subject to and limited by Port Capacity (see rest of [55.0]), to the lowest calculated tonnage, in the port of departure (outgoing), and destination (incoming).
[55.46] No personnel, tanks, guns, etc., may be shipped via Axis coastal shipping.
[55.47] Coastal ships may stop and unload in one port and then continue on to another port, etc., as long as they do not exceed their CPA.

[55.5] COMMONWEALTH COASTAL SHIPPING
The Commonwealth had far more capable and numerous merchant ships available for use than did the Axis. Commonwealth Coastal Shipping is not represented by counters.
[55.51] To use coastal shipping, the Commonwealth Player notes supplies to be moved on his boats at the beginning of the Truck Convoy Phase. These are considered transferred to the destination port at the end of the Truck Convoy Phase.
[55.52] Shipping such supplies is subject to and limited by Port Capacity (see rest of [55.0]), to the lowest calculated tonnage, in the port of departure (outgoing), and destination (incoming).
[55.53] Coastal shipping cannot be attacked from air or land. Supplies cannot be transferred to a port that has been neutralized (having a current Capacity Level of zero), nor to an Enemy-occupied port (though the Axis player would surely be grateful for such a contribution).
[55.54] No personnel, tanks, guns, etc., may be shipped via coastal shipping, however see [30.5] for rules regarding naval movement of CW troops and equipment.

[56.3] AXIS COASTAL SHIPPING (Moved to [55.4])

Sounds like this is the consensus on updating the shipping rules to clarify that the Commonwealth can ship units, replacements, and so on. 

[Deleted]

Sure, I think Mike's re-rewrite is spot on as far as it goes. I think 30.5 should be folded in as well but that can wait.

By the way, Tim, why are you an "associate member"? Did you transgress an unwritten law or something?

[tim]

Oct 13, 2014 4:37:36 GMT @grognard said:

Sure, I think Mike's re-rewrite is spot on as far as it goes. I think 30.5 should be folded in as well but that can wait.

By the way, Tim, why are you an "associate member"? Did you transgress an unwritten law or something?

To paraphrase Groucho Marx, I wouldn't be a member of a club that would have me.

Dunno, don't care. Doesn't stop me from posting here. 

[Michael Miller]

Summarizing, the consensus is to use my suggested rewrite of these rules as shown below.

Move existing Coastal shipping rules for both Axis and CW under [55.0] PORTS AND SUPPLY, into new sections [55.4] Axis and [55.5] Commonwealth, while leaving a pointer reference in the old [56.3] rule as follows:

[55.4] AXIS COASTAL SHIPPING
The Axis had a small fleet of boats that they used for coastal transfer of small amounts of supplies. These were old shipping boats and aging tramp steamers that could ill afford to venture too far from land. They have a limited capacity.
[55.41] Axis coastal shipping is represented by several ship counters. Each ship counter has its tonnage capacity printed on it. Each ship has a CPA-equivalent of 50. Each sea hex costs one point. Axis Coastal Shipping moves four "Tripoli-Tunis" boxes per Stage.
[55.42] Axis coastal shipping moves only during the Truck Convoy Phase. Coastal shipping does not require fuel for game purposes.
[55.43] To use coastal shipping, the Axis Player loads supplies on his boats at the beginning of the Truck Convoy Phase (at a cost of 5 CPs) and then moves the boat. Unloading supplies costs 5 CPs. Only one type of cargo may be carried at any one time by any one ship marker.
[55.44] Axis coastal ships cannot be attacked from air or land. They may not enter a port that has been neutralized (having a current Capacity Level of zero), nor may they enter an Enemy-occupied port.
[55.45] Shipping such supplies is subject to and limited by Port Capacity (see rest of 55.0), to the lowest calculated tonnage, in the port of departure (outgoing), and destination (incoming).
[55.46] No personnel, tanks, guns, etc., may be shipped via Axis coastal shipping.
[55.47] Coastal ships may stop and unload in one port and then continue on to another port, etc., as long as they do not exceed their CPA.

[55.5] COMMONWEALTH COASTAL SHIPPING
The Commonwealth had far more capable and numerous merchant ships available for use than did the Axis. Commonwealth Coastal Shipping is not represented by counters.
[55.51] To use coastal shipping, the Commonwealth Player notes supplies to be moved on his boats at the beginning of the Truck Convoy Phase. These are considered transferred to the destination port at the end of the Truck Convoy Phase.
[55.52] Shipping such supplies is subject to and limited by Port Capacity (see rest of 55.0), to the lowest calculated tonnage, in the port of departure (outgoing), and destination (incoming).
[55.53] Coastal shipping cannot be attacked from air or land. Supplies cannot be transferred to a port that has been neutralized (having a current Capacity Level of zero), nor to an Enemy-occupied port (though the Axis player would surely be grateful for such a contribution).
[55.54] For rules regarding naval movement of Commonwealth troops and equipment, see 30.5.

[56.3] AXIS COASTAL SHIPPING (Moved to 55.4)

[tim]

Looks good mike.

Thanks!

[Michael Miller]

From Tim:

One rule discussion that we never completed was [30.57] on port capacities and the impact of importing supplies and units through the same port. That thread branched off into the Commonwealth coastal shipping discussion that lead to the updates to [55.4] and the new [55.5]. But we didn't resolve 30.57. This is a yellow-ish light situation, but it only affects Commonwealth shipping since the Axis cannot voluntarily ship units. So I'm sure some kind of gentlemen's agreement will suffice until a later update.

Here's rule [30.57] including the official errata, plus one typo fix:

[30.57] Whenever a Player transports troops by way of a port, the ability of that port to handle supplies is reduced. For every Stacking Point transported in, reduce the Maximum Tonnage for that stage by 10%. (SP's shipped out have no effect.) Thus, if 1 SP were shipped into Tobruk, its maximum tonnage of supplies for that turn would be reduced by 10% to 1530 (1700-170). For ports with an incoming capacity of more than one SP, if they bring in at least 50% of their supply tonnage maximum, reduce the SP level by at least ⅓. For ports with 1 SP maximum, shipping in supplies has no effect.

And here's rule [55.15]:

[55.15] In addition to any reductions brought about by Enemy action, the fact that troops are being debarked at a port - as opposed to supplies (fuel, ammo, etc.) - may reduce its Efficiency Level vis a vis supplies for the OpStage or Game-Turn in which the troops arrive. The arrival of scheduled reinforcements (those that arrive mandatorily, via the Reinforcement Schedule), as op-posed to those which the Players plan, etc., do not affect a port’s capacity or Efficiency Level.

This rule seems redundant with [30.57]. Ideally each should refer to the other. Maybe specify CW in the Logistics rule and move the case under CW Coastal Shipping as [55.55]. I don't see it as a blocking issue in any case, unless I've missed something.

[Michael Miller]

Separate but related issue to those above:

There is yet another oddity affecting this in the Italian scenario setup though, having to do with Tobruk's Efficiency Level. Chart [55.3] shows Tobruk as having a maximum level of "5". According to [60.7]:

[...] All ports are at listed Efficiency with the exception of
Tobruk, which is at Efficiency Level 7 (the San Giorgio is partially sunk, blocking the harbour).

Something is wrong, obviously, as 7 > 5, so the San Giorgio appears to be improving Tobruk's Efficiency instead. Since this is ridiculous, we need to determine what rating to give instead. Possible range is {0-4}.

[tim]

Tobruk - if the rule say 7 that is a typo. It should be 3.

[tim]

Sorry I am typing on my phone so I can't quote.

Back to 30.57 - as I notes in the rules draft we never finalized the update to that rule. Go back to the original post the math in 30.57 as written is contradictory.

I agree that 55.15 is redundant and should at least reference whatever correction we end up with for 30.57.

[Michael Miller]

All right, I caught myself up on this thread. Bob's proposal seems the best to me, however it fits better in the Logistics rules. I recommend reducing both to stubs in [30.57] and [55.15] with a single rule under the new Commonwealth Coastal shipping rules in [55.5]. Also, [30.55] was rather a mess. Suggested changes shown below. Trivial clarification to round fractional tonnages UP, to be consistent with existing [55.14].

[30.55] To be transferred, each unit must start the Operations Phase in its port of embarkation. Units to be transferred cannot voluntarily expend any Capability Points during the Phases prior to the Truck Convoy Segment. During the Truck Convoy Segment, each unit is transported to its destination port and, upon arrival, it must disembark. Disembarking has a Capability Point cost equal to the unit's CPA. If, for any reason, the cost of disembarking causes a unit to exceed its CPA (such as for a unit which has undergone barrage/bombardment; it may still be transferred), see case [6.21]. Note: Breakdown [21.0] does not apply to disembarkation. 

[30.57] Ports have limited capacities (see Chart [55.3]), so concurrent off-loading of supplies will necessarily limit the off-loading of troops and vice-versa. For details, see [55.55].

[55.15] Ports have limited capacities (see Chart [55.3]), so concurrent off-loading of troops will necessarily limit the off-loading of supplies and vice-versa. For details, see [55.55].

[55.55] Ports have limited capacities (see Chart [55.3]), so concurrent off-loading of troops (see [30.5]) will necessarily limit the off-loading of Coastal Shipping supplies and vice-versa. For each stacking point transported in, reduce the Maximum Supply Tonnage for that Stage by the equivalent fraction of the current capacity. Similarly, when supplies are off-loaded, the port's Stacking Point capacity is reduced by the appropriate fraction with the Stacking Point capacity, rounded down. For example: If 2 stacking points of troops were landed at Alexandria while functioning at full Efficiency (capacity 5), its remaining Stacking Point Capacity would be 3 and its Maximum Supply Tonnage would be 9000 tons (15000*(3/5)=9000). Round tonnage fractions up to the nearest ton. If Alexandria then received 5000 tons of supplies, its remaining Supply Tonnage capacity would be 4000 tons and its remaining Stacking Point capacity would be 1 (5*(4000/15000)=1.33 which rounds to 1).