CNA Oldtimer

[rangerdave]

WOW!!! I am seriously impressed. You must have access to some awesome printing / mounting facilities. What is your system for mounting?

It was hard to find anyplace near me that could print a single map sheet. I do have all of CNA on digits but the best price I could find was 36.50 plus tax per sheet. I wasn't interested in spending $200.00 for color maps. So, I went for the $5.50 B&W version. I'm almost done coloring them in. It's defintely good enough for me to play on.

blu3wolf - Love to have you join in once I work out the kinks and make corrections on my end.

In regards to the map I ran into one question I thought was corrected but I can't seem to find the errata/correction on them. The two towns of Abassia and Almaza (NW of Cairo) both have black dots but have small case black letters. Should they be blue dots/letters to match town/birs or should the names remain black but be larger and bold to match the other black dot towns?

Thanks

[rangerdave]

Hello,

Besides the above question on the two Egyptian towns, I have one Game Start issue.

According to the Tobruk Garrison Order of Battle the "San Giorgio" starts scuttled and partially blocking Tobruk Harbor. This is inaccurate. The San Giorgio was actually anchored in the shallows of Tobruk Harbor (used as an Anti-air platform) and was not scuttled but blown up by the Italians on 22 Jan 1941 when the British took Tobruk, in an attempt to destroy the ship (it had less than 1 meter under the keel). After Tobruk fell the British occupied the San Giorgio (They actually renamed it HMS ...something) and used it as a repair platform. As a side note it was actually refloated after the war for scrap purposes but sank enroute to Italy. As such the San Giorgio should have no negative effect on Tobruk Harbor operations. I recommend a rule change to reflect this. Comments?

[sierra]

Funny you should mention this, I actually put a fair amount of research into this very topic myself a while back:

boardgamegeek.com/thread/2025665/proposal-rule-change-san-giorgio (I am Tara M)

I'm not certain a definitive answer was ever determined in terms of how to treat it in-game, but I'm sure that Tony will have thoughts in his upcoming version of the rules.

[sierra]

I re-read the whole thread to reacquaint myself with the details of the San Giorgio, and found that I actually did come up with a proposal for a change to the rules:

[30.17] The Italians do have a ship: The San Giorgio. It has been parked in the harbour of Tobruk to serve as a stationary gun battery. It is immune to torpedoes, may fire into adjacent hexes and may fire at Commonwealth ships adjacent hexes through sea hexsides. If Tobruk is taken, the San Giorgio is scuttled in the harbour in the same Op-Stage and removed from the game. The ship may be undocked from the harbour if the Italian commander wishes, though it requires 3 Op-Stages to prepare and to take each action, instead of the usual 2, due to the Italian supply situation. If this happens, as the ship has been uninstalled from its fortified position, it loses its immunity to torpedoes and its AA rating drops from 6 to a 4.

[55.25] is rescinded. (previously read: Players will note that at the start of the game, the Italian cruiser San Giorgio is partially blocking the harbour of Tobruk. The San Giorgio reduces the efficiency level of Tobruk by three levels.)

[60.7, 61.6] Remove references to Tobruk being below efficiency maximum. San Giorgio is in the harbour in both campaigns.

Again, though, it'll be up to Tony to determine what he feels is appropriate for the situation.

[blu3wolf]

Well, in the (unlikely) event that I ever arrange a game of CNA myself, rest assured that Ill be using your version of that rule Sierra I read that when I first found this forum and quite liked it.

[rangerdave]

Tried posting afew days ago but wasn't working. Will try again.

[rangerdave]

Working now. Impressive sierra lots of searching. Amazing how we were both looking into this at about the same time. I managed to fnd twoitems of interest that support your conclusion.

1. The after action report of the San Giorgio's Captain.

2. A copy of an Australian Bde map they used during the defense of Tobruck that show the location of the San Giorgio.

I will try to adf the address, but they are long and I might have been the cause of the prior issue with posting my reply.

The AAR. Not as long as last time. I must have done something wrong before.
www.alieuomini.it/pagine/dettaglio/documenti,11/san_giorgio_a_tobruk,326.html

The Aussie Bde map. Again. A lot shorter address. I definately did something wrong last time.
www.bing.com/images/blob?bcid=TjJM-BPyG4AAzw

[sierra]

Those are some fantastic finds, Dave, thanks for that. A larger version of the map can be found here anoutstandinaustralianarthurbeau.weebly.com/uploads/1/1/3/0/11301448/_6746207_orig.jpg which helps pick out the detail. I haven't the time right now, but I look forward to reading the whole of the report on the San Giorgio when I'm able.

[ATD]

I really wouldn’t bother trying to create an Excel-based solution. For one thing, I’ve already done it. For another, macros aren’t up to the job (it needs a lot of dedicated code, which was incorporated into my earlier sheets). The main reason however, is that the Visual Basic system, which is quite close to completion, will vastly surpass any such attempt.

As to the rules, whilst I can see how a view could be formed that there are just a few things to fix, the truth is very different. Apart from the ton of stuff that already been fixed, based on my experience with the game and others, that is both did and found to be the tip of a Titanic-killing iceberg.
I really wouldn’t bother trying to create an Excel-based solution. For one thing, I’ve already done it. For another, macros aren’t up to the job (it needs a lot of dedicated code, which was incorporated into my earlier sheets). The main reason however, is that the Visual Basic system, which is quite close to completion, will vastly surpass any such attempt.

As to the rules, whilst I can see how a view could be formed that there are just a few things to fix, the truth is very different. Apart from the ton of stuff that already been fixed, based on my experience with the game and others, that is both did and found to be the tip of a Titanic-killing iceberg.

I think we have here a core of sufficiently talented and like-minded individuals, to get a game going. Two things are needed. First, I need to complete the programming, at least for the basic functions. In fact, the ground forces stuff is completed to the stage whereby the axis side could create all of their order of battle, complete with first-line trucks and supplies.

The second thing required is a digital platform on which to play. We’ve dabbled in the past with modules for Vassal, et cetera but nothing complete and robust enough was finished. An expert in these systems is what we need and any effort to bring about the start of the game, would best be direct in that direction. Due to the complexity of the game and the in advisability of automating the play of the game through those systems, the initial intention would be simply to use them as a digital map to harmonise the positions amongst all the players and to avoid the need for setting up the map permanently.

Although I have plenty of room to do that myself, the magnetic system I developed that allows the map to be mounted vertically is pretty useful and also has the advantage that the boards can be stacked together and moved around.

[blu3wolf]

I dont know how useful the idea is, but I guess you guys can be the judge of that. I used Roll20.net to set up a portion of the game map, for the purpose of playing through Operation Brevity, a short (two op stage) operation to gain familiarity with the ground combat. You can have a look here: app.roll20.net/join/4655561/fSoUaQ

The use for me was the same as mentioned above, to track the location of ground units without needing to have the board set up. Its a click and drag interface, fairly intuitive to use. Doesnt handle ground movement, just acts like a digital whiteboard that snaps counters to a grid location. It doesnt seem like a perfect solution (VASSAL seems like it might be better) but its a digital whiteboard that anyone can look at online. That to me seems a lot like the physical board properties that the game has: anyone can inspect the board and any stack of counters at any time.

Heres what a bit of the board looks like, zoomed in, with some counters already populated:

And another link to the Roll20 stuff: app.roll20.net/campaigns/details/4655561/campaign-for-north-africa

Ive also spent the last week recreating the paper logsheets from scratch, and printing them. I have the excel sheets from the geek, but theres something nice about paper. Of course, there would be something nicer about the .NET based solution that has been promised automating things for us!

[rangerdave]

Whatever works and is preferred by most works for me. I'm continuing to fiddle with my excel/macro/vba system so I can just play solo. I got the itch and it needs scratching. If it works well enough and someone can fiqure out how to get it working thru a computer link - great. If your system gets going then i'll box mine up, but until then....

[ATD]

That's an excellent solution Blu. Something simple that can be shared easily. Too much to go wrong with more sophisticated systems - along with the learning curve between multiple people and the need to do all the preliminary setting up.

that said, the initial explanatory pages were not exactly illuminating and divide come across it independently, I'd probably have missed the opportunity to use the system for CNA. It seems to be all about role-playing games. My Photoshopped version of the map would look a lot better, presuming that the system is not restricted to some sort of existing library.

[ATD]

Ranger - if I have a moment, I'll gather together some of the spreadsheet stuff. It's "quite" advanced and may save you a lot of effort.

[blu3wolf]

Nov 5, 2019 10:07:56 GMT ATD said:

That's an excellent solution Blu. Something simple that can be shared easily. Too much to go wrong with more sophisticated systems - along with the learning curve between multiple people and the need to do all the preliminary setting up.

that said, the initial explanatory pages were not exactly illuminating and divide come across it independently, I'd probably have missed the opportunity to use the system for CNA. It seems to be all about role-playing games. My Photoshopped version of the map would look a lot better, presuming that the system is not restricted to some sort of existing library.

Its intended for roleplaying games, but it seems Im not the first person to think of using it for wargames. I found a couple threads asking about how to do things like conveniently checking a stack of counters, for example. (theres no built in function for handling stacks).

The system doesnt care what background you use, thats the one Ive photoshopped. All Ive done is taken the board scan from the PDF, and adjusted it to fit a grid (the scan isnt quite uniform). Ive then blended the borders of the maps together, to make one common map rather than 5 separate ones. Then it turns out thats too big an image for them to let you use as a background... but they do allow multiple smaller ones. So Ive cut that board up into 8 pieces (2x4), and fit them all into place, and locked that background layer so that moving counters around doesnt move the map around.

It would be possible to replace the background with another version. It would be probably between 1 and 2 hours work at a guess, so it would have be shown that the new version was an improvement over the old one. Im sure thats the case, though?

I cant help but think VASSAL would work better for a lot of things. Roll20.net has a bit of latency for me which is irritating, and theres no built-in stack management. Neither of those things are dealbreakers, and Roll20 has another advantage: its there right now, while VASSAL, I got the impression no one here is knowledgeable on.

 A few days ago, I had some spare time and redid the German counters from scratch. Instead of scans, they are now generated from photoshop:

Im yet to give the Italian and CW counters the same treatment (I have to make each counter in photoshop, so its a little time consuming).

[ATD]

Indeed, it does seem to fall somewhat short then. The Cyberboard module we have contains all (?) the counters, so that might have save you a bit of work!