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Post by tim on Oct 3, 2014 1:24:02 GMT
This may sound repetitive, but I honestly missed this when reviewing the Stores rules.
Original Rules: "[28.15] For every five Prisoner Points in a hex, the capturing Player must expend one Store Point per Operations Stage (not Game-Turn). These Stores are expended before any other stores may be allocated. They need not be present; they are subtracted from the nearest supply dump, etc."
But it doesn't spell out when to expend those POW Stores.
I would like to suggest a solution. The first time in an ops stage that stores can be spent is in the Construction segment (#4), and the only phase before that where any supplies are spent is the Water Distribution segment (#1). So would it make sense to just expend these POW stores in the Water Distribution segment?
If so, we could update the rule this way: "[28.15] For every five Prisoner Points in a hex, the capturing Player must expend one Store Point per Operations Stage (not Game-Turn) in the Water Distribution Segment. These Stores are expended before any other stores may be allocated. They need not be present; they are subtracted from the nearest supply dump, etc."
Note, this does not necessitate any changes to the previously discussed changes to the Stores rules:
Proposed to add in the reference to Oases and to organize the clauses more logically: [51.1] USAGE OF STORES [51.11] Every TOE Strength Point in play requires four Stores Points per Game-Turn, except as noted below.
[51.12] HQ and engineer units require only one Stores Point per Game-Turn (regardless of assigned TOE equipment). [51.13] Units sitting in Oases have all the stores that they need and do not require the expenditure of Stores Points. See 52.3. [51.14] Prisoners use stores, at a rate of one Stores Point per five Prisoner Points per Operations Stage. (See 28.15). Prisoners must be sup¬plied with Stores before any other units. For this purpose only, if there are no Stores in the hex, Stores may be deducted from the nearest supply dump, regardless of how far away it is. Guard points require two Stores points per Game-Turn each. Guards may also draw from the nearest dump the same as prisoners. [51.15] Stores may have to be expended during construction. See 24.0. [51.16] Each Stores Point weighs one ton. Stores may be transported by trucks or planes, and they may be airdropped. Stores must be present in the hex to be used. Stores on truck convoys cannot be used until off-loaded. [51.17] Fifty per cent of any captured Stores Points may be used by the opposing Player; the rest are lost.
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Post by tim on Oct 2, 2014 19:09:47 GMT
Look guys, this whole thing is getting seriously out of hand. It very much illustrates the point that I have been trying to make lately about too many fingers in the pie. I have direct experience of this in previous attempts to play the game years ago. There were about 10 of us and it was killed stone dead by an avalanche of “viewpoints”. The overhead on reading and responding to all this stuff is onerous in itself. I’m not talking about genuine good catches and resolution of specific problems, just all the fluff that is going with it. “[36.17] An airfield is a supply dump”. There’s no point in making the rules any more verbose than they need to be. We should not be labouring endlessly over a wording unless there is clearly something demonstrably incorrect, missing or ambiguous. Voting is for elections. Kindly telephone me if anyone doesn't see the sense in this and wants to debate this sentiment further. Tony, While I see your point that this could get out of hand, I am not sure that's where we're at. The point of this forum is for discussion. To be honest, each new case, for example Michael's about off-map airfields, should be in its own thread so that the discussion process is clear. And once conclusions are reached, the last post can summarize any changes and we stop using the thread so that it drops down in the forum. What is happening here is that we're each digging into sections of the rules as we focus on an aspect of planning or early game play-testing. So these questions or suggestions are coming to light in different areas as we come across something that may seem confusing, or in error, etc. I agree that we all should prioritize and raise the major issues or questions, while deferring things that are less of an issue for starting the game. An example of a lesser issue would be converting rules that are text blocks into cases, like the Mike's Off-Map Air Facilities. For a future version of the rule that kind of update for clarity's sake makes sense. But we don't need it to start playing. Tim
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Post by tim on Oct 2, 2014 6:30:34 GMT
1. I vote for Tim's wording and no, I wouldn't add the "radiators and gas tanks" back in unless it were in the form of some sort of wisecrack similar to the ones the original authors made. 2. New topic, rule question: In [28.15] the implication is that 4 POW points would NOT burn a stores point but I don't think that's the intent - am I correct to believe that it should read "... for every 5 (or fraction thereof) ..."? 3. Another rule question, sort of: The example in [21.26] implies that it continues (or leverages off of) the example in [21.23] but there is no example in 21.23. Anyone have idea where that lead-in information regarding LII(M) Bn might be? I have some more typos to report, so I'll head over to the other thread. Making good headway recently but still feeling daunted by the sheer amount of data I don't have (or, more likely, have not yet found.) #1 - And I like Mike's case breakdown, but prefer my wording. I think that primarily affects the first sentence. #2 - GOOD CATCH. I think that 28.15 and it's counterpart in the Logistics rule, 51.12 should be read as 5 prisoner points or fraction thereof. #3 - in the original rule, 21.23 refers to an example at the bottom of the page with a little map and discussion of breakdown calcs. Since copying in the map would be difficult, I suggest the following version of the text instead: "Example: The Italian LII(M) Tank Battalion - containing, for example's sake, all M/13's - has accumulated 15 Breakdown Points; 1/2 Breakdown Point each for two Road hexes (it was using Road Movement), 8 for entering a Rough terrain hex, 2 for crossing a Ridge hexside and 4 for entering a Clear terrain hex. "
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Post by tim on Oct 1, 2014 23:21:43 GMT
[49.3] EVAPORATION AND SPILLAGE Fuel and water in dumps and air facilities, and cargo aboard trucks, are subject to evaporation and spillage. During the Stores Expenditure Stage of each game-turn, each Player reduces all fuel and applicable water levels on the game-map (not in convoys at sea) by six percent (6%), rounded down. In addition, if the weather for an operations stage is “hot weather”, an additional reduction of five per-cent is taken as soon as the hot weather is determined. There is one exception to these rates: from Sept., 1940 until the last Game-Turn (inclusive) in August, 1941, the Commonwealth spillage and evaporation rate is nine percent (9%) per Game-turn. This is due to the poorly constructed containers used by the British; it wasn’t until the British copied that German “jerry can’’ that their rate was reduced." (This rule also applies to certain sources of water, see 52.44.)
This takes into account Bob's point about air facilities, yet maintains Tony's wording that is inclusive.
The original rules do specify that liquids in radiators and gas tanks are excluded, should we add that back in? Maybe a second sentence worded like: "Water and Fuel in vehicle or aircraft gas tanks and radiators are not subject to this rule."
Or is that overkill? I'm open to suggestions.
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Post by tim on Oct 1, 2014 22:29:43 GMT
Tony - At least to me, the point of this forum was to store things we Do Not have to address before playing.
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Post by tim on Oct 1, 2014 5:27:05 GMT
I like "concise." Nevertheless, be advised that 49.3 as suggested leaves the rule's applicability to fuel and water "loose" in hexes (be it in TOE, stockpiles, air facilities, trucks, or airplanes) open to interpretation. IN TOEs, trucks and aircraft, as in, in their fuel tanks and radiators - that's already specifically excluded from evaporation and spillage. Air facilities - that's a loose one. To be honest I was lumping air fields and strips under dumps, but no harm in being specific. Not sure what you mean by stockpiles, that to me sounds like dumps.
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Post by tim on Sept 30, 2014 17:29:03 GMT
"Below the texture of the game" is the operative phrase. There are all sorts of assumptions like this in simulations. "Fuel and water in dumps and cargo aboard trucks is subject to evaporation and spillage". Does the job concisely. I like that, so we'd use this update to the Evaporation and spillage rule: [49.3] EVAPORATION AND SPILLAGE Fuel and water in dumps and cargo aboard trucks are subject to evaporation and spillage. During the Stores Expenditure Stage of each game-turn, each Player reduces all fuel and applicable water levels on the game-map (not in convoys at sea) by six percent (6%), rounded down. In addition, if the weather for an operations stage is “hot weather”, an additional reduction of five per-cent is taken as soon as the hot weather is determined. There is one exception to these rates: from Sept., 1940 until the last Game-Turn (inclusive) in August, 1941, the Commonwealth spillage and evaporation rate is nine percent (9%) per Game-turn. This is due to the poorly constructed containers used by the British; it wasn’t until the British copied that German “jerry can’’ that their rate was reduced." (This rule also applies to certain sources of water, see 52.44.)
As for mini-dumps, we clearly agree that they shouldn't be allowed to get out of hand nor to just languish endlessly. But let's see if there's really an issue before finding a solution.
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Post by tim on Sept 29, 2014 22:18:33 GMT
*sticks fingers in ears* "La, la, la, la, la, I can't hear you." (on the topic of micro-dumps)
Translation into the Queen's English - Let's cross that bridge when XXX Corps gets to it.
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Post by tim on Sept 29, 2014 5:47:29 GMT
This is an attempt to spell out the sequence of play steps affecting the Logistics and Rear area command, including defining every step when and how supplies are shipped, spent, moved and stored.
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Post by tim on Sept 29, 2014 5:46:21 GMT
CNA Supply Process flow
Game Turn
III. Naval Convoy Stage A) Naval Convoy Schedule Phase • Consult Convoy Level Chart (Axis 56.4-5) and the Axis Naval Convoy Level • Roll a die to determine the tonnage available for the next Game Turn • Enter the result on the Axis Supply and Admin.xls, Convoy tab in Column G (GT Capacity) • Plan for the following Game Turn “what specific cargoes the convoys will carry and their routes.” • Plan for replacements Two Game Turns in advance
B) Convoy Resolution Phase 1) Naval Convoy Recon Segment • Allied Air Player flies Naval Recon missions (42.5) o Reports missions flown and success or failure • Successful recon flights report results based on tonnage (CW 42.53) o None (no tonnage) o Small (< 5000 tons) o Medium (3000-10,000) o Large (7,000+) 2+3) Convoy Lane Assignments and Bombing Segments • Shipping Convoy AA is 1 Flak/AA Pt per 1000 tons [56.16] – rounded? • Results come from the [41.45] Bomb Barrage chart using the Bomb Pts row • Results for each convoy lane are reported as a % loss • Adjust this turn’s Convoy Shipping and save the spreadsheet
IV. Store Expenditure Phase • Expend Stores for all TOEs except POWs [51.1] o Every TOE Strength Point in play requires four Stores Points[51.11], except: - HQ and engineer units require only one Stores Point per (regardless of assigned TOE equipment) [51.12 was 51.13] - Units sitting in Oases do not require Stores Points [52.3]. - Guard points require two Stores points per Game-Turn [51.17 was 51.14]. o Note units on half rations [51.23] o Note units that didn’t receive stores, add a disorg pt [51.21] o Units without stores for two turns suffer attrition [51.22] • Italian Pasta rule – expend 1 Water point for every Italian Battalion [52.6] • Evaporation and Spillage [49.3] o Deduct 6% (or 9% for CW) of Fuel and Water - In Supply Dumps or at Airfields - Cargo in Trucks or Coastal Shipping - Fuel and Water in gas tanks and radiators are not subject to this rule [29.34] • Record changes in Land Force sheet, and on Supply Dump sheet and save Operations Stages
B. Weather Determination • If Hot, apply additional 5% Evaporation and Spillage for Fuel and Water [29.34] • Construction halted on maps with Rainstorms or Sandstorms [24.22]
C. Organization Phase 1. Water Distribution Segment • Each infantry Battalion or Company requires 1 Water point [52.41] • Vehicle TOE (Tank, Recce, Artillery, HQ, etc) or Truck Point [52.42] o requires 1 Water point each Ops stage it uses any of its CPA • Hot weather doubles all water expenditures for units[29.35] o Construction sites require 10 extra Water pts in Hot Weather [24.21] • Prisoners use stores, at a rate of one Stores Point per five Prisoner Points.[51.14][28.15] • Record changes on Land Forces and Admin and/or Supply sheets and save
2. Reorganization Segment • Trucks, Reinforcement and Replacements are attached or detached 4. Construction Segment • a. Construction Completion step • b. Construction Initiation/Continuation o Supplies are expended see [24.17] for amounts and length of time 6. Supply Distribution Segment • Supplies in a hex may redistributed into units, trucks loaded and unloaded • Update the Forces and Admin and/or Supply sheets and save 7. Tactical Shipping Segment • Update the Admin and Supply sheets and save
D. Naval Convoy Arrival Phase • Supplies appear in Port of arrival or Entry hex • Axis plans for arrival of replacements from the Axis replacement schedules • In the first arrival phase of the month, CW uses their Production System to plan for replacements one month in advance [20.72] • Update Admin and Supply Sheet and save
E. Commonwealth Fleet Phase • Undertake repair work on ships
F. Land Support Air Phase • 7. Tactical Maintenance – refit, ready, repair and rearm aircraft
I. Movement Segment • First Line Trucks pick up and deposit supplies, using CPA points
J. Truck Convoy Movement Segment • 2nd/3rd Line trucks are moved, supplies dropped off and picked up
L. Repair Phase • 1. Towing Segment – may tow broken down and recovered vehicles • 2. Maintenance Segment – may attempt to repaid vehicles that weren’t towed o See 22.15 for repair costs
VIII. Strategic Air Recovery Stage • B. Aircraft Maintenance Phase
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Post by tim on Sept 28, 2014 23:01:16 GMT
Following on Bob's response:
#2 - you're right, the corrections and clarifications are few. I just felt that the whole section wasn't edited well, though your millage may vary. So I suggest, and it is only a suggestion, that we re-order the clauses so that they are grouped together better.
#4 - I know that everyone agrees, but I want to be clear that rules 52.21 and 52.22 are explicit that Major Cities are the only water source that a pipeline can draw from.
#5 - I disagree about the parenthetical - evaporation and spillage in the original rules was intended to apply to fuel and water carried as cargo on trucks. Unless your point was to change that.
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Post by tim on Sept 28, 2014 17:24:44 GMT
Took a while to find it (wasn't a user authorisation) but you should now be able to create threads OK. Yup, it's done and I created a thread! Thanks Tony. As to the math, I was being pedantic. Note that the deduction for Hot weather is 5% per Ops stage that it is hot, not once per turn. But that's a side point. The main issues I was really concerned about was scale and how we'd look at pro-rating. For scale, the Axis has about 18,000 fuel points at start. Sure that's spread out across many 2nd-3rd line truck convoys and dumps, so some of the math will average out. But taking Mike's math and jiggering with it, we're still within a few fuel points when looking at a 1,000 point dump. So yeah, it's not a big issue.
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Post by tim on Sept 28, 2014 17:02:51 GMT
I thought I'd add this as a place to post minor corrections, typos and errors in examples that we come across as we ramp up to the start and then begin to play. Using this we can avoid cluttering our view of substantive issues and changes. And we won't forget them as we move onwards.
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Post by tim on Sept 28, 2014 2:23:15 GMT
Different Topic - 49.3 Evaporation and Spillage is poorly constructed (Water wastage is an afterthought). Here's the current text: [49.3] EVAPORATION AND SPILLAGE Fuel is subject to loss through evaporation and spillage, regardless of where it is kept. During the Stores Expenditure Stage of each game-turn, each Player reduces all fuel levels on the game-map (not in convoys at sea) by six percent (6%), rounded down. In addition, if the weather for an opera¬tions stage is “hot weather”, an additional reduc¬tion of five per-cent is taken as soon as the hot weather is determined. There is one exception to these rates: from Sept., 1940 until the last Game-Turn (inclusive) in August, 1941, the Com¬monwealth spillage and evaporation rate is nine percent (9%) per Game-turn. This is due to the poorly constructed containers used by the British; it wasn’t until the British copied that German “jerry can’’ that their rate was reduced (This rule also applies to certain sources of water, see 52.44.) It should read something like (The first insert is the entirety of rule 52.44, so the reference isn't necessary): [49.3] EVAPORATION AND SPILLAGE Fuel is subject to loss through evaporation and spillage, regardless of where it is kept. Water, except for water in wells and pipelines, is subject to evaporation and spillage. During the Stores Expenditure Stage of each game-turn, each Player reduces all fuel and applicable water levels on the game-map (not in convoys at sea) by six percent (6%), rounded down. In addition, if the weather for an operations stage is “hot weather”, an additional reduction of five per-cent is taken as soon as the hot weather is determined. There is one exception to these rates: from Sept., 1940 until the last Game-Turn (inclusive) in August, 1941, the Commonwealth spillage and evaporation rate is nine percent (9%) per Game-turn. This is due to the poorly constructed containers used by the British; it wasn’t until the British copied that German “jerry can’’ that their rate was reduced." (This rule also applies to certain sources of water, see 52.44.)Agreed that the rules as written require two evaporation tasks, one each Game Turn at the standard 6/9%rate, and the second each Ops Stage in the Weather Phase if Hot Weather is the outcome. Please note the math(s) involved - a 6% reduction followed by a 5% reduction will not equal an 11% reduction, so pro-rating would increase weather effects. Also, in looking at this, please note rule 29.34 (under Hot Weather) emphasis added: "If the weather is hot, all Fuel and Water Levels (not including water in wells or oases) are reduced by five per-cent (5%). This includes water and fuel in dumps as well as in trucks. However, do not count the water/gas actually being consumed by a unit (in the radiators and gas tanks, as it were). This is done during the Weather Determination Phase." So maybe we should think about porting the wording of 29.34 to 49.3 instead of the clunky "on the game map", and include the stuff in radiators and gas tanks to the reference to out at sea. Something like this: [49.3] EVAPORATION AND SPILLAGE Fuel is subject to loss through evaporation and spillage, regardless of where it is kept. Water, except for water in wells and pipelines, is subject to evaporation and spillage. During the Stores Expenditure Stage of each game-turn, each Player reduces all fuel and applicable water levels in dumps and trucks (not including that in convoys at sea or vehicle gas tanks or radiators) by six percent (6%), rounded down. In addition, if the weather for an operations stage is “hot weather”, an additional reduction of five per-cent is taken as soon as the hot weather is determined. There is one exception to these rates: from Sept., 1940 until the last Game-Turn (inclusive) in August, 1941, the Commonwealth spillage and evaporation rate is nine percent (9%) per Game-turn. This is due to the poorly constructed containers used by the British; it wasn’t until the British copied that German “jerry can’’ that their rate was reduced." (This rule also applies to certain sources of water, see 52.44.)
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Post by tim on Sept 28, 2014 1:54:29 GMT
The evaporation stuff is good too. The original authors seem to have forgotten to distinguish between “supplies” water and other water, then compounded that by referring to water on the game map. I may polish it just a little further in respect of two points. The top of my head, I don't think that pipelines/the Commonwealth Railroad (sic) are restricted in capacity, so evaporation and spillage might be inapplicable. I'll check. Just on the read through of this section isolation, it appears that hot weather evaporation would be a second calculation throughout the game, rather than simply an additional rate of loss. Depending on the position in the sequence of play (which I don’t have time to check just now), it might be possible to save a bit of work by combining them. Whether it is or not, we may not have to worry about it as I’ll program some stuff to do it automatically by then. Incidentally, that’s another reason why we all need to be using exactly the same prescribed sheets in the same way and in the same format. It means that the programs can be augmented with such facilities; in this case to work on all the supply dumps. I agree that pipelines (which includes the Commonwealth's Railroad on the map) are not subject to Evaporation and spillage. In part that is because those pipeline or rail hexes aren't water storage points, they draw water from Major Cities (per 52.21). Major Cities are unlimited water sources. For added clarity, if we add such a note to 49.3, we should also add a sentence to the end of 52.23 stating that pipelines aren't subject to evaporation and spillage. Also, while looking into the above, it is clear that the added note in 52.11 is incorrect, or at least incomplete. Currently 52.11 reads: "[52.11] Water is found in wells and oases (see 52.3). Water supply may be extended from wells through the use of water pipelines)." This conflicts with 52.21: "[52.21] Players may try to extend their access to fresh water by constructing water pipelines. Pipelines extend from a specific source of water-only wells in major cities." Here's how that should read: "[52.11] Water is found in wells and oases (see 52.3). Water supply may be extended from wells in Major Cities through the use of water pipelines)."
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